In this episode we interview Byb Bibene. Byb is a professional performer, choreographer, dance artist, director and dance educator originally from the Republic of Congo. Currently he lives in the Bay Area in California. Byb has participated in the African Diaspora Dialogues hosted by Nunu Kidane and Gerald Lenoir. In our last episode, we got to hear from Nunu and Gerald about what it means to organize dialogues. In this conversation, Byb shares his experience as a dialogue participant and how he’s incorporated bridging into his own professional work. To learn more about Byb Bibene’s work please go to mbonguifest.org and kiandandadt.com.
This episode of Who Belongs? is part of a new series of podcasts focused on telling bridging stories. Throughout the series we’ll talk to leaders implementing bridging work and individuals who have experienced the bridging transformation. This project is led by OBI’s Blueprint for Belonging project (B4B), and hosted by program researcher Miriam Magaña Lopez. This project is funded by The Annie E. Casey Foundation, Inc.
Transcript:
Miriam Magaña Lopez:
Welcome to today's episode of a new sub-series of the podcast, Who Belongs? The Othering & Belonging Institute with financial support from The Annie E. Casey Foundation is developing a series of podcasts to capture examples of bridging to belonging. We want a world where everyone belongs. So how do we get there? The answer, bridging. Throughout the series, we will talk to leaders implementing the work and individuals who have experienced the bridging transformation. My name is Miriam Magaña Lopez, and I'll be hosting today's episode.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
Today, we will be speaking with Byb Bibene. Byb is a professional performer, choreographer, dance artist, director and dance educator, originally from the Republic of Congo. Currently, he lives in the Bay Area. Byb has participated in the African Diaspora Dialogues, hosted by Nunu Kidane and Gerald Lenoir. In our last episode, we got to hear from Nunu and Gerald about what it means to organize dialogues. Byb will let us know what it's like to be part of these conversations and what it has meant for his own bridging work.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
When we last connected, you shared with me that you were born and grew up in the Republic of Congo and that you never identified as a Black man until coming to the United States. Can you tell our listeners about this experience and what caused you to adopt a new identity, in addition to your original identity?Byb Bibene:
Yeah, absolutely. I don't even call it a new identity. It's almost forced on me, because when you are in the Congo, I mean, pretty much everybody looks like me. We are Africans, we're Congolese. We don't identify with the skin of your color, but you identify as your ethnic group. Where is your ethnicity, which part of the Congo you're from, the northern side, the southern side, things like that. But it's never about what your skin color is like. But leaving Africa, going to France, Europe and especially coming to the United States, then became a new journey, instead I became Black. The conversation it's very predominance, racial topics here.Byb Bibene:
So I became Black and I had to, if I wanted or not, walk on the streets people call me, hey, he is Black. He's a Black man right now. Which, in the beginning, was very strange. Like, oh, I'm Black. What does that actually means? Because yes, you may say African Americans, but blackness is not a unique thing. We are many, it's a plural America identities within one person made them look Black or Afro descendants because the world is, you go to the islands, Brazil, wherever you go in the world, there's a presence of African descendant people. But then, eventually the history of the world is made of migrations. So if we go with centuries back and back, not every black person made it here through the slavery, or through recent migrations, but people will travel. That's a human nature to travel the world. But then I understand that's also a social construct as I'm understanding and learning about the history of the United States.Byb Bibene:
I found that there was a time in this country where calling someone Black was an insult. So people had to appropriate that term Black just saying like, okay, I am black. Yes, I am Black. So what? But there was a time here it was offensive to call somebody Black, just like the word negro, things like that, which I understand. So I say, okay. There are times I say, yes, I'm Black, there are times I say, no, I'm not Black. Just because I exactly know where I come from. I know my ancestors' lands. That's just, I go to the Congo all the time, every year I'm there. So I exactly know where I come from. But some my African American brothers and sisters, that may not be the case because many of them, the ancestors got brought here by force and now they not necessarily have ties with Africa.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
Thank you for sharing that. Our listeners have heard from Nunu Kidane and Gerald Lenoir about their experience organizing the African Diaspora Dialogues to bridge African immigrants and African Americans. You have been a participant in these conversations. Can you talk to us about what prompted you to attend these dialogues?Byb Bibene:
I mean, I've known when I moved here, for me, was just pretty much trying to understand what's going on, while as African organizations, or Africans are organizing themselves here and Nunu Kidane was one of the leaders that I met. And actually even what I talked about earlier about when calling someone Black was offensive in this country. Gerald is the person actually, that shared that with me or with us because last year I was a fellow l we call it [inaudible 00:05:29] Fellowship. I was in a fellowship comprised of Black people from all over, some from Canada, England, the Islands and Africa, everywhere. So Gerald was one of the guests. So he was sharing this history about how it was offensive to calling... I think maybe in the sixties or maybe fifties, something like that.Byb Bibene:
I'm sorry. I don't remember the exact date, but he shared the story of not... It was offensive here. So I mean, I like to see what are the leaders going? My connection with Nunu was as leaders of leading organization such as Priority African Network, for me it was like, what can I do to participate? So it was now, or throughout the past few years it's been different events, symposiums and however we can inspire the community here, how we can contribute. So I've kind of been part of the conversations directly or indirectly.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
It sounds like over the years you've been involved in a lot of conversations and events, and I'm wondering if you can think back to one of your earlier dialogues, maybe the first one, or some of the earlier ones.Byb Bibene:
I think if I will recall, probably my very first experience meeting with Nunu, it was at the... I think Priority African Network office that they used to have in Berkeley. That's where I met some of the staff in there, and some of the guests like African in diaspora, in the Bay Area, diaspora leaders who came through. I think we had like a little workshop around race for instance. I think I believe in my memory, so I do talk a lot about otherness. What is to be othered, things like that. So it was great for me to be in an environment and these Africans and African Americans and eventually with allies. When I say allies here, people from other Caucasian or from Asia, and just we are engaging in the discourse of otherness, how we become othered in this country of immigrants basically.Byb Bibene:
So I think it kind of gave me hope and it gave me just a sense of continuing the work and not stop to reflect on these issues. And I think it also kind of changed the direction of my own choreography work, being in that environment and discussing that. And also allows me to understand better what racism is, because many people, many of us who come from Africa, we don't understand what racism is. You come here, the racism come in different shapes, and either it's we have all the biases and things, but if you don't know the codes, almost like I have created a lexicon for racism. But if you are new in this country, engage in those discourses and no one's telling you about what can be as an act of racist, a racist act or not, sometimes you don't know, unless it's really obvious. That, okay, this is racism.Byb Bibene:
But sometime it's so subtle that you don't always know that, oh, this is actually not racism, but you don't know how to read it. So being in a discourse can reveal to you what is an act of racism or not. You see all the layers. So that's something you can only find out in being in those discourses and listening to everybody's experiences. And then, when you get to compare with your own experiences, then you kind of weigh it and say, okay, now I know I can react this way in a face of this or that situations. So you get to learn about you navigate the society without getting taken advantage of without going through offensive exploitative situations, just because you don't know, or also if you don't have the resources or you don't have a place to go.Byb Bibene:
So being in an environment you're meeting, I know if I have this situation, I can call Nunu, I can call Gerald, I can call Ofaro. I can call on the people. So you know I can call people on [inaudible 00:10:07] society, or I can call on those... or people at BAJI. You can call on these leaders to... or myself, as a community organizer too, I have now resources to do the same. Like you come to me, I know the person you can talk to so we can help you based on the situation a family or a person is going through.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
The idea you brought up of these dialogues, helping you understand what racism looks like in the United States is really interesting, because people don't think about that. You mentioned in these dialogues, there were African immigrants and African Americans. And I imagine for the African Americans, this idea of racism has been super clear to them since they were little kids because they've been experiencing this for much longer. Whereas for someone like yourself who grew up in a different country and came here as an adult, you're sort of having to relearn these nuances. Like you mentioned, racism is not always explicit. Sometimes it's structural, sometimes it's not visible, but it's there. I wonder for you, if you can talk some more about how understanding this has created a deeper connection with your African American colleagues, friends, partners.Byb Bibene:
When you come from a culture, also coming from one culture and coming to another culture, it takes some time. I think now I'm still learning about the African American culture. I don't necessarily, I've been here a few years and I've not been necessarily in living in African American family, for instance, I still living in my own spot and the deeper connection here or the deeper experience of African Americans is completely, still going to be different from mine, because this is centuries of this. Centuries of slavery, Jim Crow, racial segregation and... So it's basically one thing stops another one starts. And now with prison system, things like that.Byb Bibene:
So culturally, I'm still learning about creating a deeper connection with African Americans. Even if when I walk on street, hey, I'm Black, by just when I start talking, then by my accent, then they say, okay, you... some people may... It's interesting that someone may feel comfortable next to me just by my accent. They be like, oh, he's different. He's Black, but he's not Black because he's not from here. And then, if you have no accent, you're like, oh, he's Black, like born and raised here with ancestors who were slaves or ancestors who went through all these Jim Crow reconstruction period, and things like that. And then, sometime you can see there is a little bit of tension. The tension is there. And also there is trauma. I see the African Americans, my brother, African American brothers and sisters or so, they go for a lot of trauma, which for me, I cannot... I'm not living in the same way in my skin or in my flesh, inside of me.Byb Bibene:
And then, and I'm learning about what's the... how they live in the trauma is going to be completely different experience. And then, we have the all culture of food, of music and of family structure here, how they're dealing with all of that. That's a completely different experience for me. I probably will not live that experience because I'm just coming here and forming my own family, my own things that will be nothing to do with what they've been going for, throughout the past few centuries. So I'm learning, I would say, to which I'm learning about how to connect, but definitely I do make connection through my work.Byb Bibene:
Like right now, the project I'm working now, presenting is called Remember. We are remembering African ancestors who fought to free themself. I recommend Nat Turner, [inaudible 00:14:44] there is a lot of them that can eventually... history doesn't always count because we're also dealing with educational system that put aside the Black history. And then, luckily we have internet. We're finding out about all these things via internet, but not in school curriculums, for instance. So it's a learning process for me, I would say. I'm just learning and discovering at the same time, making connections.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
Yeah. Thank you so much for saying that and also acknowledging that there are differences between African Americans and African immigrants. I think, like you said, in the U.S., people tend to put both of these groups into a category of Black and assuming that there's a lot of similarities, which there may be, but as you mentioned, there's also a lot of differences. I wonder, you mentioned just now that because of these differences, there are some tensions that exist between these communities. I wonder if you can talk about some of these tensions from your experience.Byb Bibene:
Oh, yes, there is. There may be a lot of tension still. It starts with making some time how comfortable you make a white person feel or how uncomfortable you may make a white person feel. So if you make a white person uncomfortable, they may not want to hang around you. If you make them comfortable, they may want to hang around you. So the thing is like, every time I explain, if I speak, they say, oh, it's not from here. Then the white person may collaborate with me on a project. And if there's like African American, they will be like most trust has been broken. I don't know if it's fear, I don't know what it is. I'm not generalizing here, okay? I'm not saying it's always the case, but in some cases. And the tensions come from, if a white person, a Caucasian person may feel comfortable towards an African, because we don't have that history behind us.Byb Bibene:
Then if we are applying for a grant or we're applying for a social support, we may get it faster than African Americans, for instance. So if an African comes here, and then we don't have all that baggage. We come here with a focus. If you come here, I'm doing my school, I came here, I'm going to go to school, I'm going to go... I completed my master's degree throughout all the things happening. But some, many African Americans maybe don't... that can become my privilege versus they may not have that privilege to go, just come and complete master's degree. And I started the dance company. Many of them may not be able to start a dance company or get grants. So now they become jealous. The tensions are you Africans, you come here, you get all the privileges, you get all these things while we here, we're not getting them.Byb Bibene:
And that can be very tensions, and tensions also come from the ignorance because sometime I will hear things like African Americans blaming Africans for something, or the Africans blaming African American for another thing. But Africa was colonized. So after the Europeans took the Africans to enslave them for Africa, the Americas, they came back to colonize Africa. And the curriculum in Africa is the colonized world, that the French, the Portuguese. So we went to school, I speak French, school is taught in French. So we know more about the history of France and England and all these places than our own history. So now the same thing was done with African Americans here. So when you were a slave you weren't allowed to know how to read or write.Byb Bibene:
You'll get killed if you knew how to read or write because some were geniuses, they taught themselves how to read and write. So you had to hide it. And that was going on for centuries. So now you have Africans who are ignorant about their own history, and you have African Americans who are also ignorant about their own history. So you see instances of both fighting, not knowing, actually, seeing the big picture that you both have been stripped from your own history. And then, you're fighting over something you have no idea. You don't know about. The Berlin Conference from 1884 to 1885, that's where they decided to split Africa. So the African countries we have in the borders, we have today, were not put by Africans. And during the Berlin Conference, no African was there. No African were asked about what's their opinion or what they thought about splitting Africa, creating these borders. And some of the countries in Africa, even the names that were not chosen by Africans.Byb Bibene:
So you have all that going on. If you don't go back and know about history, what actually went on, and then you have the Black people all over the world, if they don't know about the history, they don't know exactly where the source is, then you see all these tensions. For me, it's interesting because I do lots of research. So when I see that, it makes me sad and somebody may be laughing. But for me, I'm a [inaudible 00:19:56] I'm just looking at this African descent, people not knowing about where they come from. Don't know about history. A lot of them don't know about the Berlin Conference. They don't know about who's ruling and where the African resources are going and all those... the media manipulations. You have probably the wealthiest continent in the world in terms of resources. And then, you have the people struggling.Byb Bibene:
And you have many people because they portrayed Africa in such a negative way, like African Americans or Black folks in the world, they don't want to go to Africa because all they see is always the media negative portrayal, but that's not my experience because negativity in a society is everywhere. There is nothing perfect anywhere. Like I say, I get the question, what do you think about... Is it nice to be in America? I'm like, it's nice to be everywhere. It's also bad to be everywhere. It just depends which city you're in, which neighborhood you're in. Your experience can be great as your experience can be bad. But again, for me, it's like the tensions, as I said already, come from ignorance. And really, my wish is just as the movements are here, changing a little bit over the school, the university curriculums, we have to be... you have universal knowledge. Universal studies versus shaped to cater Eurocentric history or something like that.Byb Bibene:
So you see that in many colleges. I mean, it's a university. University should not be using certain term. Some classes should not be just elective. No, it should be part of everything. It's global. And especially in America, it has to be reflective, all the people of America, which are, all of us coming from somewhere else. And maybe more put a little bit accent on the native Americans, because the genocide against them. And then, we are here, even talking about all these things, but hey, sometime I feel ashamed to do anything or take anything. Where are the native Americans? I came here, I was excited, like I'm going to... Because when I was younger, I used to read a lot.Byb Bibene:
I read back in the day, even when you read comics was Indians versus Cowboys, but now I'm going to come to America, I'm going to eat native American food. But I'm here, I don't know where any native American restaurants are. They'll say, where are there? They say, they're in reservations, things like that. So we're talking black and white, but what about the native of the lands here? Where's the conversation for them? Or things like that. So for me, it's like coming back, not to be ignorant, learn about history and give respect and props to the people who need to own it and bring them, bring everybody to light and respect that. And we can share the resources and share the city with everybody. I think it's well possible.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think that you're right, that we are all... different communities are pinned up against each other for different reasons, but as you illustrated, African Americans had their own terrible history that has with poor circumstances and structural racism that has led them to the situation where they feel like they've been left behind because they have, and then Africans also have become victims of colonization and have different experiences. And instead of coming together to demand that everyone gets equal access to health services, jobs, clean water, et cetera, these tensions begin to exist within communities rather than against systems that are really responsible.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
And I think that your way of illustrating has done a really good job of highlighting these tensions and what we could do to change them. I know that was one of the goals of the African Diaspora Dialogues. You shared your experience as a participant, listening and learning about racism in America that has made you understand the situation of African Americans in the U.S. I wonder, can you talk about some of the discussions that allowed African Americans to get to know more about African immigrants?Byb Bibene:
Yeah, that's in interesting. It's a good question. Honestly, I am not directly leading a movement towards that, I know folks are out there doing that. But for me, I'm focusing more on my medium, which is performing arts. And I think recently I also start making... I created a YouTube channel and I'm doing lots of videos to... My videos are there, I'm asking for Black people, African Americans to also encourage them to make connection with Africa. And the best way to make that is really to go to Africa and travel there. And this comes with many of us immigrants who come to this country, we take... it's like taking a leap of faith. We come here.Byb Bibene:
I learn English when I came here. You go to a place, you have no family, you don't know nobody, and you get to adapt. You're going to learn the language. You're going to learn how to eat the food, how to adapt to the environment and also the conditions of that society. So that's what many of us immigrants we do. We come, we start eating all this food, in the beginning it was hard. I didn't want to eat all these flavors, it was strange, foreign to my mouth, my palettes, but we have to adapt. Now I'm eating all this food from all over the world, and I'm speaking English. So I was encouraged. It may be difficult if you speak English, but just go, don't necessarily choose this English speaking country in Africa, you go, you don't know nobody.Byb Bibene:
You're going to make friends, you'll be good. Forget about whatever condition you lived here in America, you got to be humble enough to... If you really want to learn, to make connection, the only way is to be there with the people, not go on vacation, on safari or something, to go see the animals. No, you go with the people. That will give a better experience and connection with the land. And it's also spiritual. Once you're on the land, then you... things will happen for you, really. Just like we do. So that's one of the best ways to do that. And I do those, I talk about that in my videos, and some of my works tackling that and inviting, but eventually it's a work in progress.Byb Bibene:
I'm reflecting a little bit more how to do a little bit more work in that sense. But I had a festival in Congo, where we do mini performances on the streets. So I have invited some of my African American friends who've come to the Congo, and I'm trying to design a project in mind here, to create like a bridge. Do a program that I'm calling the lab program. So basically the program will each year allow to take home a group of people from here and travel in the villages and the cities and spend two or three weeks over there as a residency to give them the experience of the land. So I can only do it for my part, because the Congo is... that part of Africa I know best. Africa is big. So it's work in progress. Yeah.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
I want you to think back to that conversation that you mentioned, where you were learning about racism against Black people in the U.S., were you open to it from the beginning, or was that something that you took time to think about and acknowledge?Byb Bibene:
I think I took time because in the beginning, I don't know what it was. I did not know what it was. Yeah. It had to come from experience as I accumulated and compiled the experiences, then that start shaping with... start giving me different perspective. Yeah. Different perspectives. Just really from personal experiences as you've been study. I'm trying not to go through the details, but after a while, you be the lexicon of acts. And then, the sad thing about it as you learn, and then you become now the risk of falling into the place where you become defensive. I feel like sometimes I have to be defensive all the time.Byb Bibene:
I feel like I always have to have answer, to educate someone about racism, about ignorance, question they may ask me. And sometime I'll be like, I'm from Africa. I just got here, how can I be teaching you about your own cultural American culture? So it becomes tiring sometimes to always have to defend myself against someone who's ignorant. And the entitlement of someone who thinks, oh, because they may be white, they think they know more than I do, just because of my skin color. Which is very ridiculous to see someone like, hey, you have a master's degree, but you are illiterate, but you still think like you know more than I do.Byb Bibene:
Those instances, someone ask you questions and they answer to their own questions without waiting for the answer and they get it all wrong. So you ask some question about Africa, but you give your own answer, you never been there. That's very interesting. But then, when it comes all that it becomes tiring. And again, to come back to the answer, it's just piling of experiences and that's gets you to that place.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
It is a lifelong journey to make connections and to bridge. Many people who might be listening, maybe new to the idea of bridging and belonging, what advice would you give to listeners who may want to work on this themselves? And why do you think it's worth to do it?Byb Bibene:
I think first thing is to be curious. They have to be curious, not being judgmental about anything. That's not always a human nature, but just to be curious. When you meet someone on the streets, don't... I suggest to do our best not to judge, because it's not the way someone is dressed that determines the content of the character. It's not the shoes. It's not the clothes. It's not the tattoo they may have or the piercing they may have. It's not the skin color. Just say, hi, because I remember learning English in City College, and I feel like being nice became suspicious.Byb Bibene:
Like in Congo we say hi to everybody, you know them or you don't know them. So here it was like, oh, I say hi to you with a big smile, like, oh, do I know you? It's like, oh, no. I'm just saying, hi. Don't freak out. There is nothing. Yes, it's just hello, how are you doing? That's all. I don't need to know you. But here it felt like I need to know you. So if people can be there, don't... we can be smile, say hi to someone, someone say hi to you, even if you don't know them, just say hi and go by your way. Okay. But it's just something, maybe that's very African.Byb Bibene:
So you have to come back curiosity, do your best not to be judgmental, take some time to listen, really listen, and take some time to think when someone saying something, because what I've in the studio, I was even having conversation this morning, I feel like sometime Black people know white people better than white people know Black people at all. But even if they've been living in this country for just as long as... They came white folks and Black folks being here or Asian, they've been here just the same time. Whatever century they came here, or the ancestors came here. And actually, matter of fact, many blacks was been here, the ancestors been here longer than many Caucasians who got here recently, maybe a century ago, but because of the social construct, they became white.Byb Bibene:
I remember there was a time in this country then Italians where having hard time to adapt, were not considered as white or things like that. But now it has shifted pretty much. Any person looking white is accepted, is now benefiting from this privilege. But Black folks are almost natives, the African American because they been here much, much longer. Just like many Chinese or Japanese being here much, much longer. So let's not judge. It's also, let's do our best to read history, reflect on that.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
Thank you. I have one last question. The way that you've been describing bridging opportunities, talking to people, being intentional about maybe living in a neighborhood with a community that you want to get to know more, attending these dialogues, hosting these festivals, where you're asking people to come and share in unique food and dance and art. It seems like it requires a lot of effort. But you are continuing to do it. There must be a great payoff because you're putting in the time and the effort. Can you share what the payoff is for you? Why are you putting so much effort into bridging with communities that you don't, at this momentB have an immediate connection with?Byb Bibene:
I'm just really doing in a very natural way, without any deep particular agenda, if not just the willingness of seeing people together and happy. You enjoy each other, enjoy each other's company. That's when I do the festival, everybody's there, looking at the arts and the dance or the vending, the machine, or talking to each other, ask question. That's one thing that makes me the most happy, like have... for me to really there... And also really encouraging in the process like, hey, for everybody here, because Black people have been kind of left behind a little bit, but support Black initiative, Black businesses, give them the space also to express their arts and show the leadership as well. So give them space too, and just support them.Byb Bibene:
That's the only way we can create balance. Really. So those who have been a little bit more privileged has more advantage. You have to recognize it and support the person who doesn't have that. It doesn't kill at all. It's not a competition. It's just where we can be in a balanced place and share resources and support each other. I buy mangoes for you and you buy strawberries for me. So things like that. You create balance and everybody can be in a really good economic and financial place. And also more spiritual place as well that plays out. And so I think if I see that for the festival, I mean, the world is big. I cannot transform the world like that. I can only do it for my small place, from what I know best and what I can do best. And I'm hoping that as the editions of the festival comes, my own events, I'm hoping it inspires 1, 2, 3 people who can also replicate and do the same thing.Miriam Magaña Lopez:
That was Byb Bibene. Thank you so much for your time. And to our listeners, please check out our other podcast where we discuss belonging and bridging in more detail. For more resources and curriculums on belonging and bridging, please go to belonging.berkeley.edu/b4b. That is slash, letter B, number 4, letter B. To follow Byb's work, go to mbonguifest.org. That is spelled, M-B-O-N-G-U-I-F-E-S-T, .org. Until next time.
